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>> this original wsre presentation is made possible but viewers like you. thank you. >> a look back and ahead, as one of stock car racing's marquee events prepares for its 50th anniversary. the snowball derby on this

edition of instudio. ♪ >> in 2017 the engines will fire on the 50th year of what has become one of short track's stock car racing's prestigious races, the snowball derby, it's held each december in pensacola florida's five flags speedway.

it's known in the racing world as one of the best most competitive races in the nation. it is made heroes out of local drivers and humbled some of nascar's biggest names. the high bank half mile oval racetrack is lightning fast and the at fault surface is no

friend to tires which means driver's skill is at a premium. our guests on this edition of instudio will share their perspective on the relevance and future of the snowball derby. wayne niedecken jr. is a second generation racer, his father won the snowball twice including the

inaugural event. jr. niedecken is a fan favorite with impress san francisco resume, he has 12 track championships from speedways throughout the southeast. his best snowball was second but he's consistently run well. he is third in all time top ten

finishes. he is still an active driver and is the owner of niedecken motorsports which specializes in construction, fabrication and maintenance of race cars as well as consulting and driver development. when dickie davis started racing

at five flags speedway his day job was an escambia county deputy sheriff, his fellow competitors learned in addition to chasing criminals he was good at chasing down checkered flags. davis is now retired but before doing so, he collected two snowball derby trophies, in 1971

and 1973. seven times tim bryant raced in the snowball derby but these days he runs the show. bryant and his family began managing five flags feed speedway home to snowball derby in 2004. they purchased the track in

2007. in addition to the speedway, the family owns bryant racing equipment which supplies tires and parts to race teams. gordon paulus covered the derby for a decade and a half, as sports editor of the pensacola news journal, he's well

respected by fans and competitors for his knowledge of the sport and his ability to bring to printed page the action and draw ma of short track stock car racing. in recent years paulus moved to corporate communications for the gulf power company.

but remains a fan and expert on racing. gentlemen, welcome. what a pleasure to have y'all with me. i'm going to begin with you, tim, i know so many people are probably going to ask the question, you're in florida, you

have a race, why call it a snowball? how did snowball derby of florida come ability? >> we certainly have to pass this question on to now deceased tom dawson, we're quick to give credit for inventing and coming up with the snowball derby, 1968

he moved from ohio and came to pensacola, purchased five flags speedway, as i'm told the name snowball derby came from a snow mobile event he was familiar with back in ohio, so he held the first event in 1968 and now here we are 49 years later. >> it rarely snows but

occasionally snows in pensacola. ever snowed on snowball derby weekend? >> it's been cold but no snow yet. >> dickie davis how did you get into the racing business in >> i was sitting in service station back in 1968 and tom

dawson came to pensacola, he's from ohio. he purchased a track for $85,000 from miswilliams and he was trying to line up people to build race cars to go racing. so he came back elliot service station so we got to talking and roji joyce was there at the same

time so we got to talking and i went down to street and bought a 57 ford from a woman down the street, bought her car and brought it up there, so we build a race car and started racing in '68, that's how i got started with that aspect of asphalt and five flags.

>> you started off very young, tell me your story, your dad won the first snowball derby, you remember that? >> very well. it was very doled that day and i remember dad getting out of the car, he had a maroon looking jacket on, it looked almost

purple and he was about same color as that jacket because they didn't have windshields in the car that day so if memory serves right cautions did not count and it was like a marathon event panned they probably run two, three hundred lapse for 100 lap race and extremely cold.

>> your dad won it twice. what did he tell you the biggest challenge was about that race over the years? >> dad was always a savvy racer, he took care of his stuff, he laid back and managed his car, his tires and his equipment and had something to race with at

the end. i have always tried to mentor that in my racing. take care of your stuff and a lot of that comes from paying for your own equipment. and fixing your own race car. when you do that, it teaches you that discipline to take care of

your stuff being around at the end and try to have always i always called it if you have your fingers on and tires straight bullet you might win. i always tried to race like that. >> how old when you started >> i was 17 when i started

racing, when i started there were no radios and we run i would say i run up to early '80s without radios and it was just you. i had never raised anything, not even go carts. when i started racing and i started in a late model.

i was going to start in the spectator division and dad had an air tank explode on him in 1974. dickie drove dad's car several times there and in that span while dad was in recovery. and it was just that through that out the window because it

was a special engine, you had to run that car, you had to run the same car but lesser motor, i don't know what the weights were back then but it moved me back to starting in a late model and i started in 1975 and i want to say my first event they had sunday afternoon races back

then, they start early and i want to say it was just after february, started march and then have a couple of 50 lap shows on sundays. and you have everybody here. when i mean everybody you had half of nascar out of huey town would be here and the regulars

like lolly and bob fry, i don't know if bob was still running but bat brand and you have lindely occasionally, butch lindely, fred difry would be here. dickie, all the hot shoes would be here. there would be 20 guys capable

of winning. i was the snotty kid on the bottom and i was standing at the bottom and trying to stay out of the way, they suck the paint off my characters i got lapped four or five times my first race. it was pretty good awakening. >> i bet.

gordon, tell people who may not fully understand what the snowball derby means to the racing community. you're a journalist and covered many years what does it mean to the racing community? >> it's local short track racing at its best.

because that was the one race at the end of the year, there was no other races going on so everyone came down, even old days when nascar, the bay bakers and peersons and allisons came down. it's just amazing how tim took over the track in '04 and it's

gotten bigger the last ten years. and has become a phenomenon with speed 51 doing the coverage and just people coming down taking their vacations here for a week, coming from canada, california, all over the nation. it's just -- the race to go to

in december. >> i know my first snowball derby was in '75. and they would stick numbers on the side of your car as you come through the gate. and i had 107 on my car. and i couldn't tell you how many numbers was on the car.

i couldn't tell you if i was the last one north but i know i was 107 so there was a lot of cars. >> i think it was over 120 cars that year trying for 36 spots in snowball. that's the year it happened -- '74? >> '75 was my first year.

>> '75, i run second '75. >> my first year. >> tell me about your first win. >> the first was in '71, i was driving number 36. it was another protest. >> the story came in my own car -- nascar came in my own car in '72.

first was -- when you win that race it doesn't make a difference what year you won it whether '70s, '80s, '90s or 2000, it's the prestige of winning it. >> it's a huge deal, a lot of top tier nascar guys will come down here and compete in this

race. i mean just in recent years and tim you jump in here, i know kyle bush has won the race and he's in sprint cup champion last year. chase elliot has won it twice. talk about the the marquis names that show up?

>> eric jones has two wince in recent years, now he's in the sprint cup series full time, nascar series, whatever they'll call it. and to some degree that's why the event has really grown so much in recent years, because young drivers we can agree they

have gotten really young but they're looking for an event they can hang their hat on to get them to the next level and even starting with the kyle bush in -- joanne long, the last time a local driver won it was 2010 and she did amazing things in nascar and chase elliot with two

wince and john niedecken with a win, all those people in nascar's upper levels now. so the young guys are looking at that, they look at the races, perhaps if it's my day, things happen to me and it happens that way, it's not always the case, i will tell you one of the most

amazing stories with the snowball derby is guy named rich, who won it five times in the '90s, that's half a decades he won the race and rich did some nascar acing after that -- racing after that but most part he was just a short track racer.

and as gordon mentioned, that's really what this race is about. it's a short track race, we get the best short track racers in the country and sprinkle nascar flavor along the way makes it sweeter. >> what's the difference with the skill set what it takes to

be successful on a short track like five flags speedway versus what it takes to be successful at daytona or tall day gay or charlotte? >> now they have computerized outracing and they get on there and race on the racetrack, they're fixing to come drive

that so they know every bump ripple on the track prior to being here and they hop right in race car and go. the race car most of these cats hop into nowadays, is on seven post pull down machine, on the chassi and built by a nascar team like a winston cup car.

it's all about dollars now. >> that's what we were talking earlier what i saw happen with the car over at tracy's shop. it went in all dialed in on the machines, four hour sessions, $6,500, it's not a backyard sport anymore. >> commit's not a backyard

sport. >> those boys, -- they got a break on the price. when you talking about englers coming down setting the -- engineers coming down and the computer stuff involved in it, you get a good deal, $6,500 and qualified fourth, or fifth.

that's what it takes to get up front. >> the big thing about the derby now that i see is it's about notoriety, about the tv coverage, it's about the ink they get after this race is done and they win they run good, it doesn't matter if they win or

run good, they're going to get the ink. the ink is what it's about. the other side of that is once they get that ink in everything, daddy still has to fund that operation to get him going because when eric jones won the race, yeah, kyle bush recognized

it but daddy cut checkbook to kyle bushes and he paid for that infinity ride until his contract gets signed with a top tier say joe gib's team to what is print cup now. then his path is paid because now he's on contract. >> is it difficult for a young

guy that doesn't have money behind him to make -- >> very difficult. >> almost impossible. >> if they stay right here on the local level. >> there are instances though, make no mistake of guys that make it on talent alone but they

have the ability to find money. doesn't have to be family money, there's a guy that's an up and comer right now that is under contract, he would be listed as a snowball derby winner post race technical inspection 2015, i'm talking about christopher bell, christopher bell didn't

come for money. there was a kind of a scouting team out toyota racing development who has some affiliation with kyle bush motorsports was looking for talented drivers, christopher bell was one they recruited that's an exception in today's

world. and then of course there's guyed that got the ability to attract a sponsor, nay not have their own money, my advice to a young driver coming up today, you guys chip in but not only got to understand your race car, you have to have driving ability and

some real passion for what you do but you also have to market yourself because without that, you are not the total package. >> did jeff change the dynamic? >> he had a lot to do with it. >> joanna long is a good example. her dad helped bank roll her go

into infinity series then and lasted a year and a half, maybe two years couldn't really get a good sponsorship, didn't have great finishes and stuff like that, the money ran out. she hadn't raised much since then. >> the really sad part about

that is, of course i don't think joanna's racing career is over, i understad she may come back and run the snowball derby next year and she'll have her one-year-old daughter in tow but they were right on the edge. donald kind of carried her along the way.

but joanna got pretty polished and was so close to landing some big sponsorshipnd she would have been on her way, she had the talent but just never really could close the deal unfortunately. >> interesting. >> it's hard for anybody now to

jump up if you don't have the financial -- grant enfinger has won races and everything else, it's just harmed to make that next step. -- hard to make that next step. if you don't have a good bank roll it's hard sometimes. >> i think he passed the window

of age now. >> yeah, when you started racing in '75, you were 17. you were one of the youngest drivers out there. i remember i was racing 26 years old they didn't want you to drive their car. they wanted to get somebody

else. >> yeah. >> and it's changed. >> it's different world. >> we're having a fascinating conversation about the snowball derby. we're going to continue chatting with a hand you will full of

guys -- hand full of guys heavily involved in the race so stay with us. you're watching instudio on wsre television. pbs for the gulf coast. back in a couple of moments. >> you're watching instudio on wsre television, pbs for the

gulf coast. our guest, wayne niedecken jr., dickie davis, tim bryant and gordon paulus, we're discussing the snowball derby considered one of the nation's premier short track stock car races. have some interesting pictures from five flags speedway and

derby over the years and we're going to put those up on screen, i'll have you tell some stories and talk about them. dickie, i'll start with you on this one. >> that's claude miller, i drove his car, 36 cars won the first snowball derby, that was his car

when he owned a gulf service station, herrened u-haul it trucks, that was his first race car. number 16. >> they have changed over the years, no windshield in there. >> that's a track promoter, i'll chime in, what we give to see

guys coming to the racetrack with that rig today. it was a bill board going down the highway. in today's world they have stacker trailers, most white with no writing on the side, people can't tell what's inside the trailers but as a kid i

remember seeing those and how excited you would get seeing that go down the road and i promise you were on your dad to take you to the races. tell me about these guys. it's the alabama gang, i recognize bob by allison and neal bonnet there.

who else? >> red farmer second from left and first 32 snowball derbies. still a record. >> okay. >> who is that, david rodgers is after that. >> >> he's tied it.

>> is that cliff ford? >> that's davie. >> that was davie allison who had a great deal of success, won the daytona 500 as a matter of fact and was tragically killed in ta,ledega international speedway in a helicopter crash. >> story about davie, he was not

the greatest short track driver but once he made his way to the upper level had instant success, probably one of the best there was. >> his uncle chewed him one night in mobile, over there, donny told he had everybody on the racetrack except the

flagmen. >> best finish in snowball was 15. that was his best finish ever. >> but he did won -- he won the daytona 500, won talledega. >> he had a good deal with robert yates. larry --

>> larry mac was his crew chief, they were all from berming ha. >> who is this guy? -- birmingham. >> that's the picker we decided that guy must have borrowed that trophy. >> i was passionate about race, i was never on the caliber of

junior or dickie as far as total number of wins, i won a few races, one won track championship, so i'm proud of that but i was a racer that strived to be there every time they eached the gate. >> at one time, his two brothers and dad raised together at the

same race same night. >> no kidding. >> he finished #th in the snowball derby, better than davie allison. >> put that on my resume. >> we have a couple more pictures we'll put up here. that's many years ago.

who is that? >> that's the car buddy baker drove one year. he was at the height of nascar start when he came to pensacola >> from that was a late model sportsman car there that would run hickory and they even probably one that car at

charlotte. >> back then, nine pounds per cubic edge and 112-inch whale base, you can go anywhere in the southeast united states and be competitive and run the show. all of them were like that. that was really nice, you could go montgomery, birmingham,

jackson, baton rouge, anywhere you want to go you were in the ballpark at a racetrack. a lot of people are going to recognize these two guys. >> he was a tire changer for walter that year. >> let me put this in perspective here.

that's darryl walter in the race in the fire suit to the left of him is the legendary dale ehrhart. he was down with walter running the derby helping him change tires. >> just a crew member at that point in time, i think that

darryl probably wouldn't have been barking out orders like he was had he known where dale was headed. >> he later on gave him a ride. >> that's right. >> darryl won '76 and he took the checkered flag another year but was disqualified later on

that night. he was already on his way home with the trophy, he had the second trophy and refuses to give it back. >> somebody had to -- >> the score apparently kind of finished the lab, he finished one or two laps down and they

figured later that night. he has a trophy he still says he won too. >> they were -- what they call a flop clock. and it was complicated deal, it was corn back in those days but it took a while to figure out -- >> so he got the trophy and

check and headed out? >> i don't know if he got the check but he had the trophy. >> back in those days to make a pit stop you went around what we currently call the quarter mile, the small track inside the track and that's where they actually made the pit stops they made a

loop. if you had a score, that was the scoring each car provide viewed their own score, they made a mark on scoring chart as they come by. you mad a -- with their timing it wasn't too hard to pick up a lap.

that's what happened. >> it falls back to nascar know how, they had more know how than the average person and they got it done. >> there were some sharp ones around. >> of course people who don't know, darryl walter, he won

three winston comp chan i don't know ships and also the announcer on fox with jeff gordon and mike joy, who is a wonderful broadcaster, i don't know why his name escaped me. you were talked a few minutes ago about joe hannah long winning but the first female to

win the snowball derby, tammy joe kirk. tell that story. >> that was a great story, she was a motorcycle racer from the atlanta area and came down here, somewhat under the radar but she had run on the all pro circuit so was fairly well known.

things fell her way that day t as many snowball derbies evolve somebody in the right place at the right time at the end of the and she had a rear-view mirror full of eddie mercer in the final lapse and thankfully eddie went on to win and 2005. >> that car was -- that was 11

so there was probably a time there where eddie is thinking wow, maybe i should use that. >> he couldn't handle that pressure. >> i happen to be in the grand stands that day and there was a certain feeling that was going on, was he going to do it or

not, he was hoping he would come to the program because i wanted to ask you the question, i wonder had junior niedecken and he were that close, would they have ended up in the fence. >> he would have punted him. >> most write their mom to win that race.

>> joanna long turned someone at the end there to win that race, for tammy joe kirk not getting turned by eddie, joanna was aggressive in the last lap to win the race. >> eddie showed sportsmanship by not turning. >> he finished second four

times. >> the race changed its face over the years because back when my dad and davis and even friar and a lot of the others won i would say all the way up until the late '90s. it was pretty much a gentleman's there was comradery, there was

sportmanship, you didn't see that roughing somebody -- they would rub them or loosen them up or something but it wasn't a blatant just drive through you. nowadays you see a blatant drive through you to win this thing. it's just how prestigious this race has got ton the point where

-- to the point where the person that wins that race they're looking at this is my chance for stardom, i might make it to the level if i win this show. they're pretty desperate to win this race. >> let's go back though because you talk about that

sportsmanship and comradery, let's talk about bobby allison and sanders. because that was right in the middle of the time period you're talking about, about racers were gentlemen, they didn't wreck each other, they race hard but didn't wreck each other.

but on that particular day i remember ronnie sanders going to the pit with a wrecked car getting a jack handle and running on the treadway chasing bobby allison down with it. >> was the an ax sell because my exbrother-in-law went back there and he stopped him, run ronnie

at the time, he later crew chiefed for a bunch of people, but that was when that went on but it could have been one of them three strikes you're out deals too. we don't know. i don't know. because that's the way dad

raised and that's the way he brought me up to race. you give them three chances. third chance you're mine. >> bobby the allison brothers were involved in big events in nascar that may have turned the tide of a popularity. the first live televised daytona

500. >> really did, don any allison on the back straight away. >> but look who kept their helmet on. >> was bobby allison's great -- take his face and beatk -- beating it against my fist. i had a chance to interview

bobby, what a nice gentleman he is. now that he's no longer -- >> bobby is who he is now from the bad wreck he went through, i'm glad he developed back to who he is. >> you were talking about that, tim, as a promoter and track

owner how do you draw the line of that's just racing and that guy, he really is out of bounds. >> it's difficult. we have a race director who oversees the race and the policy basically is if you take somebody out intentionally, you're penalized for it.

and we got allow the guys a chance to race but to determine whether it was intentional or wasn't, whether it was about accident is extremely hard, much like an umpire in baseball. when the ball comes across the corner is it a ball or a strike. so judgment always plays into

it. and ultimately when race control is brought in to make a call like that, you know they're only half right. so it's kind of a no win situation. there's no perfect remedy for in our case we have a race

director named dan spence who has been in this sport since i think before junior started and he's developed a pretty strong reputation for being right most of the time but i will tell you there there's not a guy out there right every time.

>> and the situation came up, race last week, 49th when stephen got taken out 20 laps left by christopher bell? >> no it was -- the other driver. myron i think. >> byron. ,

>> correct. >> before the race director had a chance to make the call to go back to the pack, he plowed into him and knocked him out of the that would have been interesting to see what dan would have been made a ruling on that. >> i thought the same thing.

i haven't talked to him about that was a call he didn't have to make. >> so great stories about the snowball derby, there was a couple of legendary stories out there, one of them involving our guests dickie davis. we're going to put him on the

spot and have him tell that story, when we come back. you're watching instudio on wsre, pbs for the gulf coast. back in a couple of minutes. wsre television. our guests wayne niedecken jr., dickie davis tim bryant and gordon paulus.

there's a famous story about you and something to do with fuel and fuel mileage. so tell the story. >> that was in the '73 snowball back then we had the allisons walters, you try to figure how you go local man outrun the nascar guys.

we have junior's dad and i got the fuel from the same airport where you run aviation fuel so i got the thinking i remember a long time ago the drag racing used to cool your gas down with ice and make the many store stronger, -- motor stronger, you can cool it down and the gas

shrinks when it heats up it expands so i put 55-gallon drum of fuel from the airport and put it on dry ice for a week in my shop. so we got ready to go to the races, my gas was colds, my gas comes outs of the ground it's cold.

so pretty cold. so it made it -- at that time it was a 200 lap snowball. so it made the whole race without having to put gas in there. and ed how well said there wasn't no way in the world you can run the race on 22-gallons,

i had just bought that fuel cell from bobby allison two weeks before. i said man i hope he hadn't sold me something to blow up, blow up and stretch them out. i said lord so i took it down to service station and 21.6. so of course i had a little

motor from -- not a little motor but it was a smaller motor and some of the other run, it was a destroke 400 out of lee hurley's place in birmingham and i could weigh like 2700 something pounds where the other guys run 350 to 355, weighing 3150 or 3195. so ha i had a advantage there

but the motor put out the same horsepower as the big one so i got lucky. >> in you told me when we did the interview on that, had the race started 30 minutes later you would have been dqed because the gas would have been all over your car.

>> it was a sunday afternoon back then sometimes you have cold weather and sometimes you have hot weather. and the gas had expanded i said lord, i need to get going. >> ed howell who won in 1972, he actually protest? we went all the way down to the

service station at mobile highway and woody fletchers old place, went down there and they had drained -- it wasn't no gas in it. so they -- 21.6 when it come out to overflow. >> that was a relief, wasn't it? >> pay for the gas.

>> i really don't know but i will -- it worked out great. >> i thought it was larry phillips because i think he finished second to you. >> it was larry phillip, sure was, i thought testify ed. >> they were all one in the same.

>> pretty friar protested me the first time and so i said that's all right. but then when i went to go protest i could have won my third one when pete hamilton won it in '74, i run second behind him. now, when i went to go protest

him, i was five minutes late getting there. then he got found he had that nitrous oxide in this. i said man no way -- >> he dominateed that race. >> he did. t when they dropped that green flag again on the restart 10, 15

minutes he shot out like a buzz, ain't no way. but he had that little container. >> and the year before he dqed, he got so mad he was determined to win next year. >> driving doug robinson's car out of texas.

>> gordon has some stats over there, jeff, one stat that i bet he doesn't have is dickie davis' record because he didn't run that many snowballs but the average finish is phenomenal. >> dickie started 6 snowball derbies and first four finishes were 1, 1, 2nd and 2nd.

amazing. >> imagine that for four starts. >> i apologize for not giving you credit for having -- >> he is the stat man. >> what was the key to your success? >> it take as lot of luck and had a lot of -- well, had a good

engine builder in birmingham and second two times i run second i drove two different cars, i drove a morrison's car number 40 and i drove percy's car number 80. and that's the two years i run second. then drove my own car the last

two years and i sat on the outside poll and dixon brothers car i got built in california and i said i'm going to win my third one. so man, i was celebrating being on the outside poll, that's as close as i ever got so anyway, i went off to eat and party or

whatever and the crew took the -- out there raising a little saying so i said don't worry because once we shift it's all right, sir. they took it back to the shop and worked on it and messed up the shifter so they started the race i could go through first

and second but when it went to third and fourth, it wasn't so i wound up running 21st that year. >> what was it like running against his dad? you raised his dad -- >> his dad and i, now, usually he and i will be in the helmet

dash and we joke around. one time -- >> let me explain what the helmet dash is. >> the two fastest cars on a weekly show that run the helmet dash. back then they had the helmet dash and the fast heap and the

feature. wayne would win it or i would so we had a bet one time for a dollar, it was a big bet. for a dollar. i check collected, didn't i junior? didn't i win the dollar? i used to make more money

betting him outrun his car than we did in the run. >> he bet him back then. >> what was it like, you raised against your dad, right? >> i did. >> what was that like? >> the cars come out the same stable and you made sure that

you raised clean. don't want to touch your dad, you didn't want that to come back on to. and it was little intimidating on top of that. because who he was and what he had meant to racing and what he had achieved.

and his years of racing, growing up watching him race. so i just always made sure i raised real clean, i didn't get clos to that and the money went to the same household so we make a show out of it. we always made a show out of it. >> he was quite the legend in

short track racing around here, wasn't he? >> dad achieveed a lot in prior to probably the full body cars, he raised modified cars. and built his own cars. built everything about it. and there was a race in houston, texas, and jim grimes and alan

-- can't remember what alan's last name is. alan martin. alan was -- i think jim opened the err plain, we raised here on friday night, our dad raised friday night and dad wound up winning that race when they flew him out there, it was his

13th try and he had dominateed that race for years and years, the track was so rough the radiator would fall out of the car and crazy things would happen, just always something would break right towards the end and he finally won the race, he said that's it,

we're not going back. >> i have a good recollection as a kid first started cometology the races here, -- to the races here, wayne was my hero. i would go to school monday with a horse voice from screaming for wayne on friday night. >> part of the reason.

he ranked right up there. but i tell you about wayne, and junior mentioned earlier about what a savvy racer he was, back in those days as dickie mentioned, there would be a helmet dash and a heat race and generally have a consolation and then they have a feature, 25

lapse. fasters cars started in the rear. that was wayne, he had to come from the back. i hardly ever remember him taking the lead in a race before two or three to go. and i think that's why he built

such a fan base. it was not unusual on a friday night out there for a full grand stand to be on their feet seeing whether he -- wayne on that night or dickie on some night taking the lead late in the unlike today's races where it pains me to say this, to some

degree we have been part of it but today's racers they don't want those complete inverts. they say oh i can't start in the so now days we have a top six or top eight invert something like and it's not unusual for a guy that win it is race to lead half the race.

so we miss that element of >> back then it was hard because like on a friday night here or saturday night in mobile, you had 25, 30, 32 cars start a i mean a regular weekly show. and you had to start in the back you had 25 lapse to get to that checkered flag.

sometimes it wasn't easy. >> what would keep people from just sandbagging? >> we had some good -- >> there was a rule, i mean they had a quarter second break-out so if you ran faster during a race than what you qualified, you get the black flag.

>> jimmy kitchens was the best. they called him sandman. that was his nickname. he would sandbag every week to start up front then you had to catch him. >> one thing about wayne over here as far as snowball history, he raised probably 28, 30

snowball derbies, best finish was second, in 1990. i remember the years when tammy joe kirk won the crowd went wild, joanna long, eddie mercer, but if you ever take that checkered flag i think the biggest roar snowball derby would have had when you would

have won. i wish i could have seen that happen. >> i tried, just never made. >> father son deal. >> exactly. >> that had been a good deal. >> sometimes a matter of things that doesn't follow your way

because you won everything else. >> i probably had ten opportunities to win that race and just little things would occur during the event, i remember one year in particular, i run third pretty much all day long. and the car was stuck in high

gear after first restart so i had no low gear. and when you come in for a pit stop you had to hold your foot on the clutch, and the brake and keep the car running. and the car, the last pit stop of the day, this was on the quarter mile, quarter mile was

full of holes at that particular -- in that particular area, they hadn't repaved the pit. so you're jack is in a hole possibly which in this particular case it was. and the car rolled forward a little bit. when it did jack collapsed donor

the car unless the tires were off and the car fell on the ground. i had a good friend from louisiana heaping me on a crew that -- helping me on a crew a that day and this young man was probably i would say 280 pounds, he dead lifted the car by

himself and all i could here was get the jack under it. this was pre-radio, no radios back in this time. still. and they got the jack under car, after the race i said do not ever let me ever say anything bad to you.

>> what a great story, we are talking about the snowball derby, you're hearing all the fun stories on instudio here on we'll continue our great discussion here in a couple of moments. hope you'll stay with us. >> this is instudio on wsre

television, pbs for the gulf coast, we're talking stock car racing primarily the snowball derby, our guests wayne niedecken jr., dickie davis tim bryant and gordon paulus. dickie, tell me about your days as deputy sheriff, you got in trouble for racing, right?

>> got in trouble with a lot of other stuff too. back when i built -- elliot and i built that '57 ford and we had some sauce to it, furnishing the big ford motor stuff,we were doing pretty good, we couldn't handle 40-acre field but we run good.

anyway, i got in trouble with racing the sheriff at that time told me that it was conduct unbecoming officer. so i had -- i said lord, i done got half owner of a race car now i'm going to get in trouble so i was going to get suspended if i keep racing so i decided to go

out of town, racing under cotton davis was the name. so i was racing mobile and so i won a race, so they put my picture in the paper. >> newspaper got me -- mobile press. so got back took a week suspension for that for

disobeying an order and all that stuff but it worked out. i sold my car to part of the race car out and the car made the snowball derby with arnold holly driving it the yellow '57 ford. that ended that part of my career.

then the next sheriff came in, he let me go ahead and do what i wanted to do. so then i started racing for fred moore. >> most fascinating person that you covered over the years? >> at the snowball derby so many of them but i would have to say

dickie davis, followed by wayne niedecken and then tim bryant. >> the third again. >> there's so many characters. i mean, you got a guy like onion mcswaine, rat lane, local drivers and stuff. gary was one of the more unique drivers that he won a couple of

races. >> he was a nice guy. >> the very nice guy, smart we had the closest finish the snowball derby history last week, gary was involved in two previous closest finishes before that, if he had won those two, one was against rich, he would

have more wins or be tied with rich for the most wins if he pulled those two out. >> garry, great guy, interesting story about gary, one year he went on to win the race, i can't remember what year it was but there was a red flag during a race, they cleaned up an

accident scene and they stopped the cars on the back straight away, that was before there was a wall there. well, they sat there for a while, gary sant amont had to go to the bathroom. out the car he comes standing on the ledge, facing north to the

woods north of the track and did what he had to do and got back in his car and went on and won probably gordon would be the only guy that's ever done that. >> i had that in my mind when you were talking about him. because the racetrack, five flags speedway did not have a

wall around it. for the longest time. >> the spear's family constructed the wall around the speedway and that family deserves a lot of credit for bringing the track and in particular the snowball derby to where it is.

they -- they are the ones that first started selling reserve tickets and terry spears was there, they had a party down at seville quarter prior to the event and everything's kind of evolved from that. those folks get a good share of the credit for helping snowball

derby come to where it's at. >> i have a trivia question. last driver off the track, snowball derby race before the wall was put up. local driver. >> rick crawford? >> no, clay brown. >> off the back stretch.

>> do yes. yes. next year they put up the wall. i worked on that car recently. >> put the wall up was tom rough. >> tommy rough. >> rough and ready. >> he did the concrete wall all

the way around. >> he hit it later too. >> he had the correct name. >> make sure his work was good. >> it's a solid wall. >> tommy was rough. >> from you raised on that track with -- raised that track with and out-- race on that track,

what's the wall when that went up? >> hard. i think i destroyed three race cars on that wall and the last one i destroyed knocked me out. i had almost -- look trip to the hospital, did go later but it was pretty hard.

>> i can remember when they built the wall and i think i was on my way to the track for the first time to race and i happen to be in a conversation with junior on the phone and i said do you think is it going to change the groove? his answer, i'll never forget,

he says it shouldn't, they didn't move the asphalt. >> i like that. of course -- >> that's still on the outside, turn three down there. >> so for people who are not necessarily huge race fans or no about ins and outs of racing,

how fast are you going and i'll keep it to the late model, snowball derby cars how fast are you going? >> i would say late models super late model cars when you lift nowadays you're probably running 120 to maybe a little more than when you lift.

and i -- the whole thing about racing now is momentum. how little you can slow the car down, keep it rolling without touching that brake too much. i always like the trail break so i can settle a car. but kids coming in nowadays, they have an experience -- they

haven't experienced that concrete like veterans, they will run through there and might not even touch that brake. >> i would be -- the average speed on the poll center this time was 111-mile an hour. i imagine they're doing 130 down straight away before they dive

off in there. >> with the sealed motors and all, i don't know. i would have to say probably 120, 125, somewhere in there. >> the corner speeds are probably not ads slow as what some people might think. >> it's there.

>> h with the technology in the cars today, there's so much grip on these cars, they don't slow down much. >> people frown on the procars look down because they run a crate motor in them but you run faster through the corner in a procar than you will from a

super car. >> why is that? >> there's no motor. it's less motor. and we're running within two tenths, most of the time, of what a super car runs. with a less aeromotor not car, cars are the same, exact same.

motors are 100, 125 horse power shot the supers. for what everybody is claiming. whole thing is keep the car wound up. keep it you're chipping it all motors one on a -- run on a -- it sounds like a stud. it's at the end of the straight

a way, the ideal thing is to have it geared to launch off the corner, and pull the momentum as deep as you can down the straight away to the lift point try not to touch the brake, let the car roll into the corner pick it back up. there's open openings where you

come into the pitts off the tack for entrance and exit, like tow vehicles, that report of thing, everybody is trying to lift as late ads possible so you lift before the end of the wall and back on the gas before they open it. >> wow.

>> we're talking like 1,001, you're on it. >> when you hear drivers on tv talk about hitting their marks, that's what we are talking about, >> he can with have a whole show on that. i'm fascinated by that, i have

two minutes. real quick, what are you up to these day? >> i i have been refired for 12 -- retired for 12 years and i just do what i need to do. get up. >> gordon, how about yourself? >> i still follow racing i go to

daytona, birksristol and five flags as often as i can and looking forward to the 5th 50th anniversary next year. >> heck of a race, i look forward to it. >> you be in it? >> i don't know the big show but we'll be in the local.

>> you'll continue to race on local level? >> i tell everybody i own the cars and equipment and i'm dumb enough to still do this. >> tim, i get you the wrap up in 45 seconds what are you looking for in the 50th year? >> i tell you, we couldn't be

prouder where the event has gone and how our community is embraced it and all these guys certainly played a role as competitors we set the bar kind of high so we have great expectations for a 50th anniversary snowball derby, we'll work hard to achieve them.

>> fascinating conversation. i enjoyed it. our guests have been wayne niedecken jr., dickie davis, tim bryant and gordon paulus, short track stock car racing primarily talking about the celebrated snowball derby. which by the way will celebrate

its 50th anniversary in december 2017. i'm jeff weeks, thank you so very much for watching. i hope you enjoyed the broadcast. take great care of yourself, we'll see you soon.